Nate Lagos is a seasoned ecommerce conversion optimizer, but a latest A/B check stunned him.
A shopper used all-caps textual content in key touchdown web page headlines. Nate, having learn a tip on X, prompt they check headlines that capitalized solely the primary letter of every phrase.
The consequence? Conversions elevated by 25%
Nate first appeared on the podcast in 2025, when he addressed Fb advert efficiency. For this dialog, he targeted on “bottoms-up” testing, viewers focusing on, and advertising male merchandise to girls.
Our whole audio is embedded beneath. The transcript is edited for readability and size.
Eric Bandholz: What the heck do you do?
Nate Lagos: I launched my very own model, Shootin’ Doubles, final 12 months. We promote hats for whiskey guys. It began as a enjoyable facet venture. It has grown right into a enterprise with legs.
I left my full-time job to concentrate on that firm, however I noticed I wanted to make more cash. So I began an company in Could of this 12 months known as Bottoms Up: Efficiency Copywriting & CRO, the place we check manufacturers’ copy on-site, in emails, and in advert accounts. That’s been going effectively.
I’ve spent the final decade as an in-house efficiency marketer for ecommerce firms, together with Adapt Naturals, Authentic Grain, and Dugout Mugs.
I’m an entrepreneur now.
Bandholz: How do you method copywriting for conversions?
Lagos: I didn’t concentrate on conversion copy till I labored at Authentic Grain, makers of picket watches, about 5 years in the past. I used to be promoting one thing with little utility. Everybody owns a telephone to inform time; nobody wants a watch. So I began to analyze why individuals purchase a watch, why the class even exists.
I noticed {that a} watch is rather more than a timekeeping gadget. It’s an indication of standing, a logo of accomplishment. We examined messaging focusing on that persona. Conversion charges, common order worth, income per customer — all moved aggressively in the precise route.
We elevated income practically fivefold within the 5 years I used to be there. A whole lot of it was attributable to improved storytelling and copywriting.
Many inventive strategists implement top-of-funnel promoting concepts. They begin with what they suppose is high of thoughts for prospects. I take a bottoms-up method. Prime-of-funnel is often removed from an precise buy resolution. Typically, it’s not even associated to the merchandise.
A bottoms-up technique means testing copy as shut as doable to the add-to-cart button — headlines, product element pages, even dwelling pages. I wish to know what entices somebody to purchase or to bounce.
As soon as we all know that, we perceive what patrons are actually after. And as soon as we perceive that, we will go proper to top-of-funnel concepts that appeal to the proper of intent.
We’ll compose the core promoting message to be extra attention-grabbing, extra scroll-stopping.
And 90% of the time, we’re utilizing Intelligems to A/B check all the things. It’s an ideal instrument.
Bandholz: What’s the required quantity for significant check outcomes?
Lagos: Tens of hundreds, if not lots of of hundreds, of web site guests and hundreds of orders. I goal for statistical significance with an 80% or larger probability of beating the management. Ongoing iteration is crucial.
A warmth map instrument will present what guests are studying and spending time on. These are the high-impact, high-leverage areas, usually touchdown pages, dwelling pages, product pages, titles, and headlines. The primary block of copy on a web page issues rather a lot.
Bandholz: What check outcomes have stunned you?
Lagos: Keep away from all caps is one. It’s apparently a legibility factor. I haven’t examined it on buttons, however headlines and web site copy don’t should be in all caps. I can’t take credit score for the thought, as I learn it on X.
I just lately examined it for a shopper who used all caps in headlines. I ran an alternate check that capitalized solely the primary letter of each phrase. It produced a 25% enhance in conversions on a heavy-traffic touchdown web page and a decrease price per acquisition. I used to be stunned.
I’ve seen related outcomes with headlines in smaller textual content fairly than massive.
Each of these counsel easy-to-read copy.
Bandholz: What a development technique for a model that’s saturated its core viewers?
Lagos: Use merchandise as a development lever. All the time ask, “Who else might we goal?”
Once I began at Authentic Grain, about half of our prospects had been girls, but we had solely messaged males earlier than that. We obtained superb at messaging girls, who grew to become 80% of our prospects, and the enterprise saved rising.
On your firm, Beardbrand, possibly there’s an angle to promote beard oil to girls who’re bored with kissing husbands with scratchy beards. Earlier than launching a bunch of pricey and time-consuming merchandise, take into consideration who else to promote to.
Bandholz: What’s your recommendation for promoting to girls?
Lagos: Rent a girl. I employed Sarah Levinger once I obtained to Authentic Grain. I didn’t know her earlier than then. Once I discovered half our prospects had been girls, I approached her. I stated there’s a large alternative to promote males’s watches to girls as presents for his or her husbands, boyfriends, dads, and brothers, however I’ve no clue the best way to do it.
She coached me a ton. We did nice work collectively.
On the subject of presents, it’s easy. Females wish to be certain they present appreciation for what their husbands do for them. At Authentic Grain, it was girls in conventional households, with husbands doing many of the outdoors work and incomes revenue. It was her method of claiming, “Thanks. I respect you.”
For the 30 days earlier than Father’s Day and the 45 days earlier than Christmas, our messaging aimed toward feminine present patrons. Throughout the 12 months, the primary web site targeted on males.
Bandholz: The place can individuals comply with you, rent you, or attain out?
Lagos: Comply with me on X. Take heed to my podcast, “Tactical and Sensible Advertising.” I’m additionally on LinkedIn.
